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Post by Alex Tran on Sept 29, 2008 19:13:31 GMT -5
lol JP's done a good job for the most part IMHO.
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Post by burn on Sept 29, 2008 19:22:41 GMT -5
lol JP's done a good job for the most part IMHO. Good!! I fear that isn't the case though. They just let JP sign Cito to a new 2 yr contract. If they thought they were even remotely close to firing JP they shouldn't have let him make that singing. I hope I'm wrong. The sooner he's gone the better!!
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Post by Alex Tran on Sept 29, 2008 19:30:37 GMT -5
lol JP's done a good job for the most part IMHO. Good!! I fear that isn't the case though. They just let JP sign Cito to a new 2 yr contract. If they thought they were even remotely close to firing JP they shouldn't have let him make that singing. I hope I'm wrong. The sooner he's gone the better!! Hehe, I follow baseball almost as much as I follow hockey. I'll dig up some stats for you when I have the time, to show you just how good a job JP has done, and how much the circumstances are purely related to payroll and the AL East.
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Post by burn on Sept 29, 2008 19:51:47 GMT -5
Good!! I fear that isn't the case though. They just let JP sign Cito to a new 2 yr contract. If they thought they were even remotely close to firing JP they shouldn't have let him make that singing. I hope I'm wrong. The sooner he's gone the better!! Hehe, I follow baseball almost as much as I follow hockey. I'll dig up some stats for you when I have the time, to show you just how good a job JP has done, and how much the circumstances are purely related to payroll and the AL East. Cool!! I read an article in the star (last month I think) that went over the case to get rid of JP. Basically they said he was like 3rd youngest GM when he was hired. now he's one of the oldest. Also Jays salaries have increased while he was here, yet he has supposed to be a guy to win on a budget. He's the longest serving GM not to make the playoffs. The only guys with longer tenures with their teams as GM than JP are guys that have won a championship or at least made it to the finals. TB and Minny have shown that it's not all about money!!! TB also should it's not just the division that they are in, as Boston and NY can be beaten. He instituted a 5 year plan when he was hired. It's been 8 years and still nothing!! Doesn't really matter, cause I don't think they're going to get rid of him.
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Post by CarltonTheBear on Sept 30, 2008 0:52:48 GMT -5
I've never understood the hate for JP. There was a poll I saw the other day, I believe it was on sportsnet but am not sure, anyways, the poll was who is the worst GM in sport and JP at one point had like 60% of the vote. Is he really that bad? Are the Jays that bad? I really don't think he has done a bad job. The last two years injuries have been catastrophic for this team, he has built a very good starting rotation and bullpen, the Jays defense is solid, their biggest problem has been the bats and there are guys there who are supposed to get it done and haven't been. Let's also not forget the Jays are in the toughest division in baseball.
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Post by burn on Sept 30, 2008 7:15:09 GMT -5
I've never understood the hate for JP. There was a poll I saw the other day, I believe it was on sportsnet but am not sure, anyways, the poll was who is the worst GM in sport and JP at one point had like 60% of the vote. Is he really that bad? Are the Jays that bad? I really don't think he has done a bad job. The last two years injuries have been catastrophic for this team, he has built a very good starting rotation and bullpen, the Jays defense is solid, their biggest problem has been the bats and there are guys there who are supposed to get it done and haven't been. Let's also not forget the Jays are in the toughest division in baseball. But TB proved that it can be done!!! I think that JP hasn't done a good job because of the points I mentioned above. I think the biggest one is that he's the longest serving GM (8yrs) without making the playoffs. The only guys that have longer tenures with their teams are guys that have won a championship. He's the only GM that has been with the same team for more than 4 years and hasn't made the playoffs. When they hired Ricciardi they tried to get Dave Dombrowski but he wanted to be the President as well. The Jays said no and he went to Detroit. The Tigers were worse off than the Jays but he's managed to turn the Tigers into a playoff team, and he eve made the World Series.
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Post by Alex Tran on Sept 30, 2008 7:40:13 GMT -5
I've never understood the hate for JP. There was a poll I saw the other day, I believe it was on sportsnet but am not sure, anyways, the poll was who is the worst GM in sport and JP at one point had like 60% of the vote. Is he really that bad? Are the Jays that bad? I really don't think he has done a bad job. The last two years injuries have been catastrophic for this team, he has built a very good starting rotation and bullpen, the Jays defense is solid, their biggest problem has been the bats and there are guys there who are supposed to get it done and haven't been. Let's also not forget the Jays are in the toughest division in baseball. But TB proved that it can be done!!! I think that JP hasn't done a good job because of the points I mentioned above. I think the biggest one is that he's the longest serving GM (8yrs) without making the playoffs. The only guys that have longer tenures with their teams are guys that have won a championship. He's the only GM that has been with the same team for more than 4 years and hasn't made the playoffs. When they hired Ricciardi they tried to get Dave Dombrowski but he wanted to be the President as well. The Jays said no and he went to Detroit. The Tigers were worse off than the Jays but he's managed to turn the Tigers into a playoff team, and he eve made the World Series. #1 - The Rays tanked for about 10 straight seasons. If JP was allowed to do that, and build his team around $500K contracts for Longoria, Upton, Garza (acquired for 1st round pick Young), etc, then we would have no problem competing on a small payroll. The reality of the situation is, unless you're willing to bottom out for multiple years to acquire cheap, young talent, you're not going to be able to compete against the financial giants of the East. #2 - Regarding the point about the longest tenured GM not to make the playoffs: how many other GM's have to deal with both the wild card and the division leaders coming from their division every single season? There is no other team in baseball that has been able to leap frog two $150+ million teams, with the exception of the Rays. Every other team has the ability to win their own division, against a non-$150 million team. #3 - Like the Rays, Detroit was terrible for many, many years, which allowed them to accumulate tons of high end talent via the draft. Verlander, for example, was the 2nd overall pick in 2004. Also, the Tigers' payroll is at $138M.
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Post by Alex Tran on Sept 30, 2008 7:51:21 GMT -5
Here's something that really puts into perspective just how much better Jays drafting and player development has been as compared to everyone else in the MLB.
Consider:
Between 1997 - 2005 (4 years of which have been under Ricciardi), the Blue Jays draftees' have combined for a total of 27,427 at-bats, far and away the most in the entire MLB.
The closest team were the Cardinals, who check in with 25, 096 at-bats.
The Rays? 19,987
The Red Sox? 16,296
The Yankees? 886
So how do the 3 above teams compete?
Either bottom out to get tons of high draft picks, or buy stars via free agency.
Can the Jays do much of both?
Absolutely not.
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Post by Alex Tran on Sept 30, 2008 7:54:32 GMT -5
The Jays have tried their best to compete via excellent scouting and player development, but in the AL East $100M is not enough.
This past season, the Yankees spent more on their infield than the Jays did on their entire 40 man roster.
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Post by burn on Sept 30, 2008 10:51:28 GMT -5
The Jays have tried their best to compete via excellent scouting and player development, but in the AL East $100M is not enough. This past season, the Yankees spent more on their infield than the Jays did on their entire 40 man roster. Yeah, but it didn't get them anywhere. They're not in the playoffs. I see the point about the scouting and drafting you're making. I just think that after 8 years of missing the playoffs with Riccardi it's time to make a change. If you look at their first rounders only Hill has become a regular. Percy looks like he could make it next year as with Snider. But look at guys like Adams and Romero. Adams is a bust, and Romero just got out of AA late this year. His other draft picks are too early to judge. Also, if you look at the team that JP inherited from Ash the "Big Guys" that were the corner stones of the franchise are still the franchise - Halladay, Well, Rios. They fired Ash because his team wasn't good enough, yet Ricciardi has kept them for his 8 years. He hasn't added an impact player to this roster, just bit parts/role players. I realize that the Jays are in a tough division, but the goal is to make the playoffs and compete for a Championship. After 8yrs of missing the playoffs someone has to be held accountable.
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Post by burn on Sept 30, 2008 11:00:42 GMT -5
#2 - Regarding the point about the longest tenured GM not to make the playoffs: how many other GM's have to deal with both the wild card and the division leaders coming from their division every single season? There is no other team in baseball that has been able to leap frog two $150+ million teams, with the exception of the Rays. The thing with this is those 2 are always going to be huge spenders. Ricciardi always says they will retool and make a run next year, but with the same team competing against the mega spenders Boston and NY they don't have a chance. He doesn't make the changes to compete, he's brought back the same underachieving team year after year. If you think the only way to compete with Boston and NY is to do what TB did or to spend even more money why are you in favor of Ricciardi? He's doing neither. Just a thought!!
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Post by Alex Tran on Sept 30, 2008 19:31:47 GMT -5
The Jays have tried their best to compete via excellent scouting and player development, but in the AL East $100M is not enough. This past season, the Yankees spent more on their infield than the Jays did on their entire 40 man roster. Yeah, but it didn't get them anywhere. They're not in the playoffs. I see the point about the scouting and drafting you're making. I just think that after 8 years of missing the playoffs with Riccardi it's time to make a change. If you look at their first rounders only Hill has become a regular. Percy looks like he could make it next year as with Snider. But look at guys like Adams and Romero. Adams is a bust, and Romero just got out of AA late this year. His other draft picks are too early to judge. Also, if you look at the team that JP inherited from Ash the "Big Guys" that were the corner stones of the franchise are still the franchise - Halladay, Well, Rios. They fired Ash because his team wasn't good enough, yet Ricciardi has kept them for his 8 years. He hasn't added an impact player to this roster, just bit parts/role players. I realize that the Jays are in a tough division, but the goal is to make the playoffs and compete for a Championship. After 8yrs of missing the playoffs someone has to be held accountable. The 1st rounders is an excellent example of what money can do. JP's very limited budget meant that the Jays could not afford to take gambles on high potential players because they needed players who could reach the big leagues quickly and safely. Guys like Chamberlain and Buccholz that the superpowers grabbed in the 30's are not because they picked underrated players no one else knew about. It was because both those guys had character issues, wanted a lot of money, and came with several question marks. Yet they were tremendous talents. If Toronto misses on a pitcher, what do they do? If New York misses on a pitcher, they go out and sign Johnson, Mussina, Pavano, Pettite, Clemens, etc. Ever since uncle Ted's increased the budget a bit, JP's drafting has been phenomenal. Travis Snider, JP's first high school 1st rounder, is looking like a franchise calibre player. Romero finished last year in AAA with a sub 4 ERA and seems to be back on the right track. Aaron Hill is a gold glove second baseman, and a very valuable hitter. JP Arencibia, '07 1st rounder is already in AA, and is one of the top catching prospects in all of baseball. Tons and tons of power. Brett Cecil, another '07 1st rounder is already in AAA and could challenge for a rotation spot next season. One of the top pitching prospects in all of baseball as well. Future ace or #2 type starter. David Cooper, JP's '08 1st rounder jumped 3 levels in his first half season of pro ball. He absolutely murdered pro pitching, hitting above .300 at every level. Looks like another future star, and has already made several top prospect lists. In addition to this are several very promising high ceiling prospects, with whom JP was allowed to gamble with on HS players and potential type players thanks to the increased budget. Guys like Ahrens, Jackson, Tolisano, Brisker, Ginley, etc come to mind. JP's been here 8 years. Drafting and developing in baseball takes many, many years. The above players will prove to be the cornerstones of the Jays for many years to come. And JP's most underrated skill is his ability to find diamonds in the rough. Scott Downs, throwaway starter, now one of the best relievers in the game. Jeremy Accardo for Hillenbrand? Really? Brian Wolfe for Corey Koskie? Brian Tallet for nobody? Joe Inglett off waivers? Scott Carlson, journeyman minor leaguer? JP's built the best pitching staff in all of baseball, with random pieces acquired for almost nothing, along with draft picks of his like Marcum and Litsch. Gotta give him a ton of credit for that.
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Post by Alex Tran on Sept 30, 2008 19:38:47 GMT -5
#2 - Regarding the point about the longest tenured GM not to make the playoffs: how many other GM's have to deal with both the wild card and the division leaders coming from their division every single season? There is no other team in baseball that has been able to leap frog two $150+ million teams, with the exception of the Rays. The thing with this is those 2 are always going to be huge spenders. Ricciardi always says they will retool and make a run next year, but with the same team competing against the mega spenders Boston and NY they don't have a chance. He doesn't make the changes to compete, he's brought back the same underachieving team year after year. If you think the only way to compete with Boston and NY is to do what TB did or to spend even more money why are you in favor of Ricciardi? He's doing neither. Just a thought!! To be fair to JP, we've never yet had a chance to see what this team can do. Over the past few years, the Jays have suffered by far, the most injuries in all of baseball. Rios during his breakout season, Wells multiple times, Overbay breaking his hand coming off a .300 AVG/92 RBI season, Ryan needing TJS after his all-star season, Mcgowan needing TJS, Marcum needing TJS, Halladay going down after getting hit by a line drive, Hill missing almost a full season with a concussion. The list is absolutely ridiculous. Not one year, have they had a reasonably healthy team. Look at the Boston the past few years, and see how healthy they've been. The team's core is still very young, and locked up for 2 more seasons. It only makes sense to keep them intact, and if they can provide one healthy season, then there is a very good chance that they can do some serious damage. Plus with the infusion of premium young talent coming up (Lind, Snider, Cooper, Cecil, Arencibia, Mills, League), the Jays can be even better over the next 2-3 years. There is no way that management will allow JP to "tank". It's not his call. So he's gotta try to do his best with what he's got. The problem is they keep suffering random injuries (Ecks colliding with Hill...) that devastate their chances. Luckily, they're still very young, and have some of the game's best young talent coming up the system knocking on the door.
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Post by burn on Sept 30, 2008 20:50:49 GMT -5
Yeah, but it didn't get them anywhere. They're not in the playoffs. I see the point about the scouting and drafting you're making. I just think that after 8 years of missing the playoffs with Riccardi it's time to make a change. If you look at their first rounders only Hill has become a regular. Percy looks like he could make it next year as with Snider. But look at guys like Adams and Romero. Adams is a bust, and Romero just got out of AA late this year. His other draft picks are too early to judge. Also, if you look at the team that JP inherited from Ash the "Big Guys" that were the corner stones of the franchise are still the franchise - Halladay, Well, Rios. They fired Ash because his team wasn't good enough, yet Ricciardi has kept them for his 8 years. He hasn't added an impact player to this roster, just bit parts/role players. I realize that the Jays are in a tough division, but the goal is to make the playoffs and compete for a Championship. After 8yrs of missing the playoffs someone has to be held accountable. The 1st rounders is an excellent example of what money can do. JP's very limited budget meant that the Jays could not afford to take gambles on high potential players because they needed players who could reach the big leagues quickly and safely. Guys like Chamberlain and Buccholz that the superpowers grabbed in the 30's are not because they picked underrated players no one else knew about. It was because both those guys had character issues, wanted a lot of money, and came with several question marks. Yet they were tremendous talents. If Toronto misses on a pitcher, what do they do? If New York misses on a pitcher, they go out and sign Johnson, Mussina, Pavano, Pettite, Clemens, etc. Ever since uncle Ted's increased the budget a bit, JP's drafting has been phenomenal. Travis Snider, JP's first high school 1st rounder, is looking like a franchise calibre player. Romero finished last year in AAA with a sub 4 ERA and seems to be back on the right track. Aaron Hill is a gold glove second baseman, and a very valuable hitter. JP Arencibia, '07 1st rounder is already in AA, and is one of the top catching prospects in all of baseball. Tons and tons of power. Brett Cecil, another '07 1st rounder is already in AAA and could challenge for a rotation spot next season. One of the top pitching prospects in all of baseball as well. Future ace or #2 type starter. David Cooper, JP's '08 1st rounder jumped 3 levels in his first half season of pro ball. He absolutely murdered pro pitching, hitting above .300 at every level. Looks like another future star, and has already made several top prospect lists. In addition to this are several very promising high ceiling prospects, with whom JP was allowed to gamble with on HS players and potential type players thanks to the increased budget. Guys like Ahrens, Jackson, Tolisano, Brisker, Ginley, etc come to mind. JP's been here 8 years. Drafting and developing in baseball takes many, many years. The above players will prove to be the cornerstones of the Jays for many years to come. And JP's most underrated skill is his ability to find diamonds in the rough. Scott Downs, throwaway starter, now one of the best relievers in the game. Jeremy Accardo for Hillenbrand? Really? Brian Wolfe for Corey Koskie? Brian Tallet for nobody? Joe Inglett off waivers? Scott Carlson, journeyman minor leaguer? JP's built the best pitching staff in all of baseball, with random pieces acquired for almost nothing, along with draft picks of his like Marcum and Litsch. Gotta give him a ton of credit for that. All good points! Nice arguments for JP!!! I stayed away from Arencibia and those guys recently drafted because they are unproven. There seems to be some nice talent coming up the pipe for sure. I'm excited for what is coming!!! I read a lot about those guys recently drafted and it sounds promising. I like a lot of the trades/moves he's made, but I also don't like some. Odog and Bautista for Glaus!!! Hopefully you're right. Hopefully the Jays can stay healthy next year. I change my mind!!! I think that they should fire the training staff and Doctors!! LOL!!!
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Post by Alex Tran on Sept 30, 2008 21:02:01 GMT -5
lol I think the Overbay and Glaus trades were great moves at the time.
Glaus came in here his first season and mashed 38 HR's, 104 RBI's, and was only 30 years of age.
Overbay came in here at age 29 and hit .312, with 22 HR's and 92 RBI's.
We gave up almost nothing of value for Overbay.
Batista was worthless IMHO, and Hill stepped right in and delivered just as much defensively and even more offensively.
TBH, the only trade I don't like is Glaus for Rolen, and even then, Glaus forced JP's hand by wanting out.
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